[TAG] Trying to help a newcomer

[Rick Moen]

>From x at y.invalid Thu Jan 19 13:42:09 2006
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From: "(PeteCresswell)" <x at y.Invalid>
To: TAG <tag at lists.linuxgazette.net>
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Yet Another Recommendation Request: Noob, user (not server), just to fool around...
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Per Rick Moen:

>As it turns out, you're pretty much ignoring my advice, which is fine --
>but should be aware that I recommend specifically against straight
>Debian for Linux novices.  Your logic about "relearning" is not
>compelling in the least, as it turns out.  (What "relearning"?)  More at:
>http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=kicking#distro

That's why I posted it - more as a strawman than a commitment on my part.

In light of your statement on relearning, I will revert to your recommended
strategy.   
-- 
PeteCresswell

>From rick at linuxmafia.com Thu Jan 19 13:42:18 2006
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From: Rick Moen <rick at linuxmafia.com>
To: TAG <tag at lists.linuxgazette.net>
Subject: Re: Yet Another Recommendation Request: Noob, user (not server), just to fool around...
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"(PeteCresswell)" <x at y.invalid> wrote:

> That's why I posted it - more as a strawman than a commitment on my
> part.
> 
> In light of your statement on relearning, I will revert to your
> recommended strategy.   

Let me try to put that matter in broader context:

Debian can be seen as a rich, complex, evolving toolkit for constructing
and maintaining Linux distributions.  It has two main development
tracks:  "stable" is the one that gets released on a (too) infrequent 
basis, and is by design ultra-stable to the point of boredom on account
of sticking to the trailing edge.  "unstable" is the one that's right at
the bleeding edge every instant, and incrementally moves forward
constantly.  The software is surrounded by a large, robust, globally
distributed volunteer organisation knit together by a political
structure, officers, and an enforced formal policy document ("Debian
Policy") governing minutely how software must be configured,
constructed, upgraded, and interact with other software, in order to be
included in the project's package collections.

(I am eliding quite a bit of complexity, such as a third development
branch, "testing", that is the unstable branch filtered through some
automated quality-control quarantining scripts.)

Debian proper does not bother to produce installer routines or
comprehensive administrative utilities aimed at novice users, and does
not in general focus on the desktop per se.  It also (infamously) lacks
a reliable release schedule, in part because (in the past, at least) it
has tried to release all 13 supported CPU architectures simultaneously.  
It also tends to force new users to choose between the Scylla of the
trailing-edge "stable" branch's lack of new and more-exciting software
versions and the Charybdis of "unstable's" rough transitions (usually
minor breakages) as key software is gradually upgraded.

All of those things are, fairly consciously, left to third-party
Debian-derivative distributions, such as Xandros Desktop OS,
Ubuntu/Kubuntu, LinspireOS, Kanotix, MEPIS, Knoppix / Gnoppix / Morphix
(etc.).  As an example, consider the Ubuntu Linux project:

Ubuntu forks off a separate archive of Debian's "unstable" package
collection every six months, assigns it a name, works to stabilise 
its contents (concentrating on core packages, which at first
concentrated on GNOME, and now also involve KDE), keeps that named
branch supported for a number of years, and releases them on a fixed,
pre-announced six-month schedule, like clockwork, for three CPU
architectures only (i386, AMD64/EM64T, and PowerPC).  Those releases to
date:

v. 4.10 (i.e., released 2004, October):  Warty Warthog
v. 5.04 (i.e., released 2005, April):  Hoary Hedgehog
v. 5.10 (i.e., released 2005, October):  Breezy Badger
v. 6.04 (i.e., to be released 2006, April):  Dapper Drake

All of those releases have remained approximately compatible with the
Debian "unstable" branch of the same period.  That is, Ubuntu
installations have been fairly easy to cut over to Debian "unstable" and
vice-versa.  There are minor glitches; the more experienced one is with
Debian-style architectures and their issues, the less significant those
would seem.  The same is also true of Debian vs. MEPIS or Kanotix --
because Debian's strongly enforced and comprehensive Policy framework
is a stabilising influence even between Debian proper and its offshoots.

The underlying deep structure of all of those distributions doesn't just
resemble Debian:  it _is_ Debian -- to the extent that, from the
perspective of a long-time Debian administrator, all of them look like 
possible useful Debian installers (mechanisms useful for creating Debian
systems).  Which, in fact, they certainly are.  See:  "Installers" on
http://linuxmafia.com/kb/Debian/ 

That perspective will seem somewhat alien to Linux newcomers _and_ to 
proponents of most other Linux distributions, both of whom tend to
identify distributions with (and define them by) their installers.
Long-time Debian administrators, by contrast, tend to regard installers
as nearly irrelevant trivia, and view what really defines a Linux
distribution over the long term as its distribution policy, and its
administrative and maintenance regime.  Metaphorically, being born may
be an essential part of living (for mammals, anyway), but there should
be a whole lot more to life than that experience.  Evaluating (e.g.,
reviewing) Linux distributions on the basis of their installers is like 
ending your autobiography with a description of the hospital delivery
room.

Which is, of course, part of the point of my "Installers" page.

In any event, from the longtime Debianista's perspective (which, yes,
would indeed be mine), you would not need to "relearn" Debian after
getting used to Kubuntu, MEPIS, or Kanotix, because you've been running
Debian in all meaningful respects -- just from a third-party installer.

As an aside:  Part of the problem of guiding utter newcomers in their
choice of Linux distribution is that you have no idea what will prove to
be vital criteria towards their long-term happiness -- and neither do
they.  If I detailed some of the significant issues dividing Linux
distributions into families and groups, you might completely
misunderstand many of them, and not grasp others in context, because you
don't have a framework into which to slot those observations.

As an example:  Newcomers tend to think they need ungodly-overpowered
CPUs, and don't believe me when I tell them that a PIII is more than
good enough for most needs.  They don't believe me when I tell them 
that getting Linux support for their winmodems going isn't worth
significant time and effort, and they're better off spending US $40
(used) for a proper hardware solution.  They don't believe me that Linux
viruses are a joke, and that there are real security issues you should
worry about instead (see:
http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/index.php?page=virus).  All of those
things and much more they really have to determine for themselves. 
Therefore, one's aim is to help the newcomer get going painlessly on a
Linux distribution -- almost any Linux distribution -- so he/she can 
get the lay of the land, and decide independently on where to go next,
and why.

Anyhow, welcome.  We here on comp.os.linux.* can help you with just
about any Linux distribution.  Pick one.  Play with it.  If it doesn't
suit you, or you're just curious and have more time, try another.
Repeat until happy.

-- 
Cheers,                                        "He who hesitates is frost."
Rick Moen                                                 -- Inuit proverb
rick at linuxmafia.com