[TAG] (Not-TAG) Kate Fox's _Watching the English_

[Rick Moen]

For the Gang's amusement, herewith, selected posts from a thread on the
Smofcon mailing list, http://lists.sflovers.org/mailman/listinfo/smofcon .

"Smofcon" is a convention for volunteer runners of science fiction
conventions, who in standard tongue-in-cheek fashion are dubbed SMOFs
(Secret Masters of Fandom).  A "concom" is a "convention committee", a
event's operating management body.





From: Margaret Austin, UK
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 14:21:41 +0100
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

This is really for Deb (my personal e-mails to her don't seem to be
getting through) but others might be interested too so I hope you'll
forgive me for posting this here.

Anyone working on a concom with Brits might like to read: "Watching the
English" by Kate Fox.  It's a brilliant study of what is
quintessentially English about the English.  You can find it here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0340818867/sr=8-1/qid=1151327979/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-0289956-7146565?ie=UTF8 

My question for Deb is: can you direct me to an equivalent study of what
makes Americans American?

Many thanks.
Margaret





From: John Mansfield, Canada
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 09:11:44 -0500
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Margaret Austin worte:

> My question for Deb is: can you direct me to an equivalent study of
> what makes Americans American?

In a nutshell

The British think 100 miles/Kilometers is a very long distance, The
Americans think that 100 years is a very long time...

John M
Who thinks 40 years in fandom is.....





From: Rick Moen, California, USA
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 08:38:10 -0700
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Quoting Margaret Austin:

> My question for Deb is: can you direct me to an equivalent study of
> what makes Americans American?
 
<tongue align="cheek">
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0451528646
</tongue>





From: Deb Geisler, Massachusetts, USA
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:59:24 -0400
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Margaret Austin wrote:

> My question for Deb is: can you direct me to an equivalent study of
> what makes Americans American?

I don't know of any, but my field isn't cultural studies or, really, 
intercultural communication.  And Americans aren't really 
self-reflective in the same way that the English are (and when we are, 
it's not usually as funny), so I haven't heard of anything published.

You might find this interesting, however.  It's a quick guide to the 
U.S. by a university in Maryland that has a lot of international 
students come here to study: 
http://www.salisbury.edu/ISS/intlhdbk/customs.html

There's a "cultural hints" section at the bottom.  :-)  I learned that 
we want people to show up promptly, wearing deoderant, in casual 
clothing, and without a gift...for class.

(Oh, but ignore most of the pricing information.  It says gasoline is 
$1.50 a gallon.  I'd say it hasn't been updated in a while.)





From: Margaret Austin, UK
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 16:45:05 +0100
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Rick Moen wrote:
>Quoting Margaret Austin: 

>> My question for Deb is: can you direct me to an equivalent study of
>> what makes Americans American?
>  
> <tongue align="cheek">
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0451528646 
> </tongue>

Not what I'm after at all although, of course, I read this at school.

I'm interested in an academic study of the behaviour traits and
characteristics that distinguish Americans from Brits (and others).
Kate Fox touches on some of these in her study of the English.  I'm
looking for an American perspective on the subject.





From: Rick Moen, California, USA
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:39:02 -0700
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Quoting Margaret Austin:

[tongue-in-cheek reference to Mark Twain's most famous works]

> Not what I'm after at all although, of course, I read this at school.

Oh, I know it wasn't what you seek:  Thus my mock-HTML tagging.  I
will point out, though, that _Huckleberry Finn_ (in particular) has long
been seen as perfectly embodying at least a certain archetype of
American[1] character.

Personally, I prefer the later, awesomely effective political activist
Twain, author of 'To the Person Sitting in Darkness', who as spiritual
leader of the Anti-Imperialist League put a swift end to a pointless
war[2], but I acknowledge the point.

> I'm interested in an academic study of the behaviour traits and
> characteristics that distinguish Americans from Brits (and others).

That will be difficult.  Not only are USAians regionally diverse and a
composite people, but also, don't forget, Benjamin Franklin _was_ an
Englishman before becoming a transatlantic Jacobin.  ;->  In that sense,
_Poor Richard's Almanac_ is every bit as much yours as ours.

[1] I wanted to write 'Yank' in recognition of our fellow American
countries to the north and south, but the spirit of Mr Clemens of
Missouri scowled at this very notion.

[2] http://www.boondocksnet.com/cb/twain_mtws.html





From: John Lorentz, Oregon, USA
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 10:10:23 -0700
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Deb Geisler wrote:

> I don't know of any, but my field isn't cultural studies or, really, 
> intercultural communication.  And Americans aren't really 
> self-reflective in the same way that the English are (and when we are, 
> it's not usually as funny), so I haven't heard of anything published.

On top of that, the US is a much larger country than England.
Culturally, there isn't _a_ United States--instead, there are several
regions that differ culturally from other regions to a great extent.
(There's nothing more alien to me than the religious fervor that is
drummed up by high school football in Texas.)





From: Pam Fremon
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 17:27:23 -0400
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Here's another American guide book:

The Xenophobe's Guide to the Americans
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1902825160/sr=8-4/qid=1151356986/ref=sr_1_4
/002-2144800-0667259?ie=UTF8





From: Deb Geisler, Massachussets, USA
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 23:43:21 -0400
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Margaret Austin wrote:

> Thanks but this isn't quite what I'm after.  Read "Watching the
> English" and you'll understand the type of book I'm looking for.
> It's much more to do with culture than factual stuff.  To give you an
> example, the book talks about the various ways we have of detecting
> another English person's true class.  People aspiring to a higher
> social class often reveal the class they were born into by the words
> they use (eg serviette is working class, napkin is middle and upper
> class), where they shop for groceries (ASDA is working class, M&S
> middle class), how they eat (peas are the classic example here - if
> you're upper class or aspiring to be upper class you will eat peas off
> the back of your fork) and what they wear.  The last is particularly
> fascinating - the middle classes wouldn't dream of buying clothing
> with a pattern from M&S as it'll be identifiably M&S; the upper
> classes wear good-quality clothing but it might be a bit shabby and
> items won't necessary match.   

Although there are some guides to American cultural behavior (and I'm
glad Pam had a suggestion -- didn't have time at work today to do any
research for you), reading your note above I was rather astounded at how
many subtleties there were in English middle- and upper-class behaviors.
I think John's right...the U.S. lacks a good deal of the homogeneity
that would give us some of the same "rules" (although there are,
clearly, *some*).

And forgive me, but the pea thing?  All it triggered for me was a memory
of the old poem:  "I eat my peas with honey.  I've done it all my life.
It makes the peas taste funny, but it keeps them on my knife."





From: Margaret Austin, UK
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:01:33 +0100
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

That's as may be, but I'm sure from a foreigner's perspective there are
behaviour traits and cultural idiosyncrasies common to all who live in
the USA, and possibly the whole of North America.  Maybe some of these
are easier for us to spot than for you to identify.  

One big difference between the English and the Americans I've observed
is that whilst the English would hardly ever dream of starting up a
conversation with a complete stranger (or even someone you vaguely know,
come to that) at a bus stop or on a train, in the US by the time you
actually get on the bus or train the American standing next to you has
normally told you their entire life story.   I exaggerate, of course,
but in general we find Americans much more open and willing to share
personal information than we are.  In the book, Kate Fox talks about the
exceptions to the not-talking-to-stangers rule, e.g., to complain about
the weather or to say, "Typical!" when you're on a train which gets
delayed owing to leaves on the track, etc.  Of course, as soon as the
train starts moving again, we all hide behind our newspapers and
conversation with strangers ceases.  And, just because you said
"Typical!" yesterday to a person you see on the train every morning that
doesn't give you a free licence to start up a conversation the next day.
After a couple of years, it might be acceptable to nod and mutter, "Good
morning," but nothing more.

One of the things I found reading "Watching the English" was that the
writer's observations were blindingly obvious after I'd read them although
not necessarily beforehand, e.g., that we use humour to get through
potentially embarrassing situations.  I hadn't consciously been aware of
the extent to which we use humour.  It really is all-pervasive.

Despite being a very small country, England does have considerable
regional variations in culture.  Yorkshire is probably more alien to
someone from Berkshire or Surrey than Massachusetts is.

I won't be able to make Smofcon this year, as Martin will either still be
waiting for his triple bypass or recovering from it, but cultural norms
might make a good topic for the programme.  It would be funny if nothing
else.  I'd be happy to be involved if it's on the agenda for the 2007
Smofcon, rather than this year's.





From: Ben Liberman
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:37:32 -0500
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

A few links of interest...

http://www.edupass.org/culture/
http://www.antimoon.com/forum/2002/571.htm
http://www.dogwoodcenter.org/keywords/kculture.html
http://www.geert-hofstede.com/





From: Deb Geisler, Massachussetts, USA
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 14:32:48 -0400
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Ben Liberman wrote:

> A few links of interest...
> 
> http://www.edupass.org/culture/
> http://www.antimoon.com/forum/2002/571.htm

Much of what is at the second link didn't interest me much...but one 
posting (see below) nearly made me spit coffee at the monitor.  It's 
equally insulting to Americans, Brits, Canadians, and Aussies:

The difference between Australians, Brits, Canadians & Americans

Australians: Dislike being mistaken for Pommies (Brits) when abroad.
Canadians: Are rather indignant about being mistaken for Americans when 
   abroad.
Americans: Encourage being mistaken for Canadians when abroad.
Brits: Can't possibly be mistaken for anyone else when abroad.

Australians: Believe you should look out for your mates.
Brits: Believe that you should look out for those people who belong to 
   your club.
Americans: Believe that people should look out for & take care of 
   themselves.
Canadians: Believe that that's the government's job.

Australians: Are extremely patriotic to their beer.
Americans: Are flag-waving, anthem-singing, and obsessively patriotic to 
   the point of blindness.
Canadians: Can't agree on the words to their anthem, when they can be 
   bothered to sing them.
Brits: Do not sing at all but prefer a large brass band to perform the 
   anthem.

Americans: Spend most of their lives glued to the idiot box.
Canadians: Don't, but only because they can't get more American channels.
Brits: Pay a tax just so they can watch four channels.
Australians: Export all their crappy programs, which no-one there 
   watches, to Britain, where everybody loves them.

Americans: Will jabber on incessantly about football, baseball, and 
   basketball.
Brits: Will jabber on incessantly about cricket, soccer, and rugby.
Canadians: Will jabber on incessantly about hockey, hockey, hockey, 
   hockey, and how they beat the Americans twice, playing baseball.
Australians: Will jabber on incessantly about how they beat the Poms in 
   every sport they play them in.

Americans: Spell words differently, but still call it "English".
Brits: Pronounce their words differently, but still call it "English."
Canadians: Spell like the Brits, pronounce like Americans.
Australians: Add "G'day," "mate" and a heavy accent to everything they 
   say in an attempt to get laid.

Brits: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on an island.
Australians: Shop at home and have goods imported because they live on 
   an island.
Americans: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor 
   in a backwards country.
Canadians: Cross the southern border for cheap shopping, gas, & liquor 
   in a backwards country.

Americans: Drink weak, pissy-tasting beer.
Canadians: Drink strong, pissy-tasting beer.
Brits: Drink warm, beery-tasting piss.
Australians: Drink anything with alcohol in it.

Americans: Seem to think that poverty & failure are morally suspect.
Canadians: Seem to believe that wealth and success are morally suspect.
Brits: Seem to believe that wealth, poverty, success and failure are 
   inherited things.
Australians: Seem to think that none of this matters after several beers.





From: Margaret Austin, UK
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:51:02 +0100
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Deb Geisler wrote: 

>Much of what is at the second link didn't interest me much...but one 
>posting (see below) nearly made me spit coffee at the monitor.  It's 
>equally insulting to Americans, Brits, Canadians, and Aussies:

Insulting, yes, but there's some truth in many of these.  Not sure I
agree with all of them.  Plus I would modify a few.  The English do get
mistaken for others when abroad, usually Aussies, and very upset we are
by it too.  It happened to me a lot in 1993 when I went to SFO.  It
hadn't happened in 1976, which was my previous visit to the West coast,
so I rather assumed in the intervening years the numbers of Aussies
visiting the US must have increased.  I really don't see how anyone can
confuse the two accents.  Aussie and South African, yes, but not Aussie
and English.  That would be like confusing a Tennessee accent with a New
York accent or Yorkshire with Berkshire.

>Brits: Do not sing at all but prefer a large brass band to perform the 
>anthem.

Ah, but we have the Welsh to do the singing for us.

>Brits: Pay a tax just so they can watch four channels.

Actually, the licence fee goes to the BBC so it used to just be 2
channels.  BBC now has 4 channels.  With the advent of satellite and
cable we do now get hundreds of channels - mostly rubbish.  And, the
Beeb isn't what it once was.

>Brits: Will jabber on incessantly about cricket, soccer, and rugby.

Rugby is what the Welsh are passionate about.  With the English it's
soccer.  Having said that, only one of my circle of friends has any
interest in the World Cup which is happening at the moment.

>Brits: Drink warm, beery-tasting piss.

I'd have to disagree with this one.  Warm, yes.  Piss, no.

>Americans: Seem to think that poverty & failure are morally suspect.
>Canadians: Seem to believe that wealth and success are morally suspect.
>Brits: Seem to believe that wealth, poverty, success and failure are 
>inherited things.
>Australians: Seem to think that none of this matters after several
>beers.

This was my favourite of all the insults.
Margaret




From: Deb Geisler, Massachussets, USA
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:32:51 -0400
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Margaret Austin wrote:

>The English do get mistaken for others when abroad, usually Aussies,
>and very upset we are by it too. 

Does that happen in lots of places?  Or just in the U.S.?

I ask because it was pretty clear to me who the English were when I 
lived in Madrid.  Often before they even opened their mouths.

Living there sensitized me to other English-speakers.  It also made me 
feel deep kinship with the guy from Alaska I met in Madrid's royal 
palace, even though where he lived was further from Massachusetts than 
was Madrid.  Heh.

>I really don't see how anyone can confuse the two accents.  Aussie and
>South African, yes, but not Aussie and English. 

If you want to see someone really go ballistic, ask a New Zealander if 
they're from Australia.  I made the mistake of doing it with a surgeon 
while he had a sharp implement slicing through a part of my back at the 
time.





From: Margaret Austin, UK
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:03:38 +0100
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Deb Geisler wrote:

>Does that happen in lots of places?  Or just in the U.S.?

In Europe we can usually be identified fairly easily by style of dress
(or rather lack of style compared with the French, Italians and
Spaniards).  Elsewhere we can be mistaken for Americans but not usually
Aussies.

>If you want to see someone really go ballistic, ask a New Zealander if
>they're from Australia.  

I guess that's the equivalent of us confusing Canadians and Americans.
(William Shatner has always sounded American to me.) We too sometimes
have difficulty distinguishing between those from Australia, Tasmania
and NZ.





From: Mark Linneman, Canada
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:36:26 -0700
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Deb Geisler wrote:

>If you want to see someone really go ballistic, ask a New Zealander if
they're from Australia.  I made the mistake of
>doing it with a surgeon while he had a sharp implement slicing through
a part of my back at the time.

Any serious scars?

After living in Australia in the 1980's I can tell the difference. (most
obviously the vowel sounds - "six" pronounced something like "sex" for a
Kiwi) This mistake is a very easy way to offend.  Advice given to my
American friends touristing anywhere who cannot tell - ask them if they
are from New Zealand.  An Australian, if you are wrong, won't care or
will just be amused.  This is not a new prejudice - if you look at older
fiction written by New Zealanders (e.g. Dame Ngaio Marsh's mysteries
written from the 1930's - 1970's) you can always tell the Australian
character.  They may be energetic and talented but they're always crass,
obvious and very loud.

I've used the Australia/New Zealand example to suggest to Australians
that when in doubt about a North American just ask them if they're
Canadian.    





From: Margaret Austin, UK
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:36:50 +0100
Subject: [smofcon] ENGLISH SELF-DEPRECATING HUMOUR

I thought I'd change the subject header as we've moved on a bit from my
original question.

One of the differences Kate Fox highlights is that the English are very
modest, to the point of being self-deprecating.  She says this is rare
in the US.  An example would be where an English  person with umpteen
degrees in a subject and years of experience might say, "Yes, I dabble
in XYZ," whereas an American would be keen to tell you all about the
awards they've received in the subject and that they are the leading
expert in the Western hemisphere.  Kate Fox says that if an English
person self-deprecatingly claims not be very good at something an
American is liable to believe them whereas another English person would
realise it's a joke or a way of being modest.  Of course, because we all
know it's just a game the statement is not very modest at all - quite
the opposite, in fact.





From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen, California, USA
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:42:09 -0700
Subject: [smofcon] ENGLISH SELF-DEPRECATING HUMOUR

One of my favorite examples was talking with some friends who were  
expressing frustration over people not being able to speak English. I  
turned to the Brit and said, "well, at least you can."

He smiled and said, "I have a go at it."





From: Rick Moen, California, USA
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 12:44:25 -0700
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Quoting Mark Linneman:

> I've used the Australia/New Zealand example to suggest to Australians
> that when in doubt about a North American just ask them if they're
> Canadian.    

Our family friend Karsten Self (likewise a Yank) recently spent a fair
amount of time travelling around eastern Australia, and behaved himself
sufficient well that, once, a local asked, "So, are you Canadian?"
Thinking quickly, Karsten replied, "No, but thank you."

The local laughed appreciatively -- twice.  Once when he realised that
Karsten had grasped the subtext, that an American wouldn't be offended if 
wrongly classed as Canadian, but a Canadian might bristle upon being
lumped with seppos^WYanks.  Twice, when he realised that Karsten had
gone on to gracefully one-up his gesture.





From: Janice Gelb, California, USA
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:52:29 +1000
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Margaret Austin wrote:

> I really don't seehow anyone can confuse the two accents.  Aussie and
> South African, yes, but not Aussie and English.  That would be like
> confusing a Tennessee accent with a New York accent or Yorkshire with
> Berkshire.

Things must have changed - used to be that it didn't matter what
Commonwealth accent someone had, Americans just assumed they
were all British.

I credit my time living in Israel and hanging around the other Anglos
there for my ability to identify accents. All I have to do is figure out
quickly which of my friends there they sound like and I know where they
come from. At one point, I could even distinguish between South African
accents from Kimberly and Johannesburg, although I'm not sure I could do
that any more.

I have only been following this thread off and on so I don't know
whether anyone else has mentioned the following site, which provides mp3
files of various accents for countries and regions:
http://www.ku.edu/~idea/dialectmap.htm

>>Americans: Seem to think that poverty & failure are morally suspect.
>>Canadians: Seem to believe that wealth and success are morally
>>suspect.
>>Brits: Seem to believe that wealth, poverty, success and failure are
>>inherited things.
>>Australians: Seem to think that none of this matters after several
>>beers.
>
>This was my favourite of all the insults.

Reminds me of an old, old joke that I heard in Israel (shortened here):
A reporter is doing "man in the street" interviews about a meat
shortage.  He stops several people and asks "Excuse me, what do you
think of the recent meat shortage?" An American replies "What's a
shortage?" A Russian replies, "What's meat?" An Israeli replies, "What's
'excuse me'?"




From: Sharon Sbarsky, Massachussets, USA
Date: Thu Jun 29 10:02:45 EDT 2006
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Janice Gelb wrote:

> Reminds me of an old, old joke that I heard in Israel (shortened
> here): A reporter is doing "man in the street" interviews about a meat
> shortage.  He stops several people and asks "Excuse me, what do you
> think of the recent meat shortage?" An American replies "What's a
> shortage?" A Russian replies, "What's meat?" An Israeli replies,
> "What's 'excuse me'?"

I've heard the same joke before, but the punchline was said by a 
New Yorker...





From: Grant Kruger, South Africa
Thu Jun 29 10:07:43 EDT 2006
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Sharon Sbarsky wrote:

> I've heard the same joke before, but the punchline was said by a New
> Yorker...

And yet New York was just declared the US's friendliest major city in a
recent survey.





From: Deb Geisler, Massachussets, USA
Date: Thu Jun 29 11:53:31 EDT 2006
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Grant Kruger wrote:

>And yet New York was just declared the US's friendliest major city in a
>recent survey.

Friendly =/ courteous.

Courtesy varies from location to location.  Spaniards, once they were 
introduced to one, could be very friendly...but they don't queue, they 
have very different beliefs than Americans about physical space and 
tactile contact with strangers (so they're constantly pushing and 
shoving, which drives the no-touch-me American -- like me -- nutso), and 
I seemed to be the only person who would say "please" and "thank you" in 
a bar getting my morning coffee.

One of the hardest lessons I learned was what *I* thought of as "common 
courtesy" was not common at all.  And it is very culture-driven.  (But, 
by the way, the please-and-thank-you got me better service, even so.)





From: Glenn Glazer, California, USA
Date: Thu Jun 29 12:53:21 EDT 2006
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Speaking of which, I have found that I get better service in sushi bars 
by speaking broken Japanese than perfect English.  I think that just 
making an effort counts for a lot.

Best,
Glenn





From: Craig Miller, California, USA
Date: Thu Jun 29 13:06:22 EDT 2006
Subject:  [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Grant Kruger wrote:

>And yet New York was just declared the US's friendliest major city in a
>recent survey.

Survey Taker:  Which is the US's friendliest city?
New Yorker:  WE ARE!  You gotta problem with that?





From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen, California, USA
Date: Thu Jun 29 15:36:56 EDT 2006
Subject:  [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Glenn Glazer wrote:

> Speaking of which, I have found that I get better service in sushi
> bars by speaking broken Japanese than perfect English.  I think that
> just making an effort counts for a lot.

Some years ago, I had been traveling in Europe for weeks. When I  
finally arrived in Paris, I happened to be walking down a street and  
saw a McDonald's. I'd been craving a burger, so I went in. The people  
ahead of me ordered chicken McNuggets, and the guy taking their order  
pretty obviously genuinely spoke no (or very little) English. He was  
trying to ask them what sauce they wanted. I translated for them, and  
they got their sauce. He looked visibly relieved (which is how I  
figured out it genuinely was a language difficulty, not rudeness).

Despite the horror stories I'd heard about Paris, I found that I had  
a wonderful time with "best effort" French, and was seated in the  
French-speaking sections of restaurants.





From: Rick Moen, California, USA
Date: Thu Jun 29 15:43:10 EDT 2006
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Glenn Glazer wrote:

> Speaking of which, I have found that I get better service in sushi
> bars by speaking broken Japanese than perfect English.  I think that
> just making an effort counts for a lot.

FYI, the parallel case is _not_ true in Paris restaurants, when you're
studying at the Alliance Francaise on Boulevard Raspail.  (Of course, it
didn't help that this was during the five summer weeks when the only
Parisians not on the Riviera were the embittered ones not able to leave.
Why this was somehow _my_ fault was never made clear.)





From: Glenn Glazer, California, USA
Date: Thu Jun 29 15:48:51 EDT 2006
Subject: [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Rick Moen wrote:

> FYI, the parallel case is _not_ true in Paris restaurants, when you're 
> studying at the Alliance Francaise on Boulevard Raspail. (Of course, 
> it didn't help that this was during the five summer weeks when the 
> only Parisians not on the Riviera were the embittered ones not able to 
> leave.   Why this was somehow _my_ fault was never made clear.)

And Deirdre wrote:

> Despite the horror stories I'd heard about Paris, I found that I had a 
> wonderful time with "best effort" French, and was seated in the 
> French-speaking sections of restaurants. 

Poll the delegation! ;)

Best,
Glenn





From: Deirdre Saoirse Moen, California, USA
Date: Thu Jun 29 15:36:56 EDT 2006
Subject:  [smofcon] WATCHING THE ENGLISH

Glenn Glazer wrote:

> Poll the delegation! ;)

I loved the irony too. We didn't go together, of course. I actually  
went in late May, which is probably ideal. People are still looking  
forward to vacation (or even a chance of vacation).